Fantasy for scifi geeks

14 years ago | apocalypsenovel (Member)

Decided to start a new post for my edification. Can some of the authors of fantasy stories explain fantasy to scifi guys like me? I have been reading many of the fantasy stories from members of this site and much of it goes over my head. So, can people explain the main archetypes? The difference between the types of elves, ogres, knights, shape-shifters, etc? You see, we scifi authors basically have humans ans aliens. Sometimes zombies. Pretty easy. Many times the worls is in danger or ends. That's the gist of our stories. Help a brother muggle out.

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Responses

  1. Sora (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    It's kind of hard to explain because most of the fantasy stories here stray away from the conventional types of archetypes you find in the standard fantasy stuff you can find in a bookstore or library. Many of the stories that I find online don't have the elves and ogres and if they do, they aren't the standard, like in Tales of MU. There are many of the standard fantasy species/races, but they aren't used in the stand way. I think one thing that defines a fantasy is that things happen in a world unlike our own, much like a sci-fi. It's really not as easy to explain if you are using fantasy stories online as your basis. Stories like Alisiyad and Queen of Seven differ from stories like Tales of MU and An Intimate History. Then there are the subcategories that crossover like Urban Fantasy and Cyberpunk, Steampunk, and the like. I don't think you are going to find the standard fantasy on here.

  2. Ryan A. Span (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    I'm mainly a sci-fi author and reader, and all I can say is, read the Song of Ice & Fire series by George R.R. Martin. This will clear up any confusion you might have about fantasy and why it does actually deserve to exist.

    After that, you might move on to the Black Company series by Glen Cook, as well as Terry Pratchett, Philip Pullman, Neil Gaiman, etc. Things will proceed from there.

    Regards,
    Ryan

  3. Sora (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    If you want to know about all the "archetypes" and cliches and tropes, then read Eragon. Then proceed to the good stuff that Ryan mentioned.

  4. apocalypsenovel (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    @SoraKainomori - Thanks for the explanation.

    @winter - I have read some Gaiman - Liked it very much- Always stayed away from Martin because it seemed too much like fantasy and Pratchett because the covers always look like the stories are supposed to be funny, and I refuse to read any funny science fiction not written by Douglas Adams, I did pick up the new Gaiman at the bookstore and then put it down, would that be a good fantasy read?

    @SoraKainomori - Eragon seems to be for a much younger reader, but if you recommend it I will try it.

  5. Tahjir (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    Gaiman: Neverwhere, maybe American Gods (If you don't mind creepy sex scenes.)

    Buy Pratchett. Now. Like, now now. He's the best ever. Better than Adams. (At least in my mind. I do own every single one of his books...) It's a bit difficult to pick the right book to start off with. His books have several strands, like Rincewind the Wizzard, the Night Watch, and the Witches.

    If you like mysteries and detective stories, Guards! Guards! is a good place to start, and Wyrd Sisters is good if you like strong female leads and Shakespeare references.

    Martin is a bit... difficult. Seriously. The first book has dozens of characters, and the politics are incredibly complex. Ice and Fire is sort of a magical War of the Rose, as written by a depressed Tolkien. He's rather fond of killing off everyone you could ever root for, and portrays a brutally violent, depraved world where nobody is truly good or evil.

    Also, there are dozens of Fantasy genres. High, Dark, Urban, Low...

    It's even harder once you factor in online works, which are usually very unique. For instance, the one I write is Dark Fantasy set in a sort of Napoleonic era world.

    Apocalyptic Urban Fantasy
    http://hangarninetysix.wordpress.com/
  6. Ryan A. Span (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    apocalypsenovel: IT'S A TRAP!

    Nobody recommends Eragon. Nobody that isn't a sick, depraved bastard intent only on the suffering of humankind. *glances at SoraKainomori*

    Martin is actually one of the only fantasy writers I like, even after four doorstopping volumes in the Song of Ice & Fire series. I've gone off Tolkien, I've gone off Feist, and Tad Williams can <censored censored censored>, but not Martin. I'd say Glen Cook is harder to get into than Martin. The only challenge with Martin is getting used to all the characters, but like I said, if you start ASoIaF you're in it for the long haul so there's plenty of time.

    Pratchett is unreservedly hilarious and most of his books are massive send-ups of fantasy tropes and cliches. It's not sci-fi, and it's not Douglas Adams, but if you can stomach Adams's sense of humour you should have no trouble with Pratchett's.

    Regards,
    Ryan

  7. Sora (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    *shifty eyes, whistles* ^^; Heh... I didn't do anything. I was "recommending" it because it seems to have every cliche and trope known to mankind stuff between it's cover. I was pretty young when I read it and I hated it. I was so mad that I even purchased the book and I never regret anything I buy, even if it is an impulse buy. I was also being a bit sarcastic, but for some odd reason sarcasm is lost in the interwebz. XD. So if you want to know the "tropes" and "cliches" read Eragon. If you want something WAY better, read what the others are suggesting. You can probably read Prachett to see how tropes are handled correctly and read Eragon for a good laugh to see how tropes are handled very badly. It's good to read the bad stuff too, it makes you appreciate the good. *wants others to suffer the same pain. XD*

  8. Jim Zoetewey (Moderator)

    Posted 14 years ago

    One thing you might do is this:
    Many science fiction authors are also fantasy authors. I'd say check if that's the case with some of your favorites and then see if that's true of them. That way at least you know you like their writing beforehand. After that it's just a matter of the genre.

    Another idea:
    Check out the classics of the genre. Lots of "high fantasy" copies Tolkien so read Lord of the Rings (or at least watch the movies) if you haven't already. You might also check out stuff by Poul Anderson (he wrote science fiction as well). For that matter, you might also check out stuff by Roger Zelazny, specifically his Amber series (he also wrote science fiction).

    I'm not sure who the classics of "urban fantasy" are... Probably Neil Gaiman's work will become some of them, but within that area I personally like Jim Butcher's series about Harry Dresden, a wizard living in modern times. It's very accessible stuff. It tends to be as much a mystery as anything else.

  9. Pete Tzinski (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    I think it's just so hard to point and say "This is fantasy." About as hard as it is to point and say "this is SF." After all, we all know that there is pilesand piles of SF which goes beyond "humans versus aliens," we can all think of plenty of it. Without the aliens. Or without the "versus" or even without the humans. Tons of it. And the same applies to fantasy.

    There's a million little sub-genres in fantasy, just like there is in SF. And...mostly...they're just tags to shelve the books under, in a bookstore. Don't worry about it. Just find interesting books.

    You've gotten some really sharp recommendations here. Roger Zelazny is a delight, Neil Gaiman, Terry Pratchett, absolutely. I cannot recommend strongly enough that you read some Fritz Leiber, and some Robert Silverberg.

    And if you want to phase slowly from SF into fantasy...why not read Dune? That's fantasy AND SF. ANd then there's Gene Wolfe's amazing books. Fantasy, SF, horror, and huge time-eaters. Zelazny, another one, who is fantasy and SF combined.

  10. acetachyon (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    A good overview is here:
    http://www.sfsite.com/columns/amy26.htm

    As to the different types of creatures (elves, ogres, shapeshifters, etc), each author has their own take of the classic definition. The following link is a good start:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_species_in_fantasy_fiction

    KAT AND MOUSE, GUNS FOR HIRE When the going gets tough, the tough shoot back
  11. Pete Tzinski (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    And really, you could sum down both genres as "humans and aliens" for SF (as mentioned in the first post) and "Humans and species" or "humans and myth" for fantasy. THey can both boil down so simply, and then expand into such complex and varied things. Which is why I love reading. :D

    @ Ace - I hadn't seen that SFsite article before, that is a really good one, I'm glad I got to see that. Thanks.

  12. apocalypsenovel (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    Thank you all. I think I understand better. I will read Dune - Saw the movie and enjoyed it. I will also try Pratchett and Zelazny, we'll see how it goes...
    Once again, thanks.

  13. Ryan A. Span (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    Dune is not fantasy. It's a timeless sci-fi classic and one of the best novels ever written, but there's no way you can classify it as fantasy . . .

    Regards,
    Ryan

  14. Kristine (Member)

    Posted 14 years ago

    Apocalypsnovel - purge the movie Dune from your mind and embrace the beautiful novel that is Dune (if that makes any sense). Though I've never considered Dune to be Fantasy, it's Fantastic.

    I'm a writer of strictly Science Fiction, who recently found herself writing what had to be called a Fantasy, though it follows none of the paths you'd expect to see when hearing the word Fantasy. In fact, I'd prefer to consider it Science Fiction merely because that's what I write - but technically, so I'm told, if your character steps through a door into another world, you're a Fantasy. Walking, talking, and squawking forced me to call it a Duck. But what I'm getting at is, Fantasy can take on MANY forms. Don't shy away thinking it's only dragons, elves and the odd princess or two.

    And read Terry Pratchett! If you loved Douglas Adams, you'll be made happy.

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